19 January 2014

Forum #41 (1 - 19 jan. 2014)

Posted 01 January 2014 - 05:13 PM
Knul, on your website, you write:
"... het werkelijke bedrog [is] m.i. gepleegd door het duo Ernst Stadermann en Cornelis over de Linden [...] die meenden veel geld aan het manuscript of een uitgave daarvan te kunnen verdienen."

"... the actual fraud [was] i.m.o committed by Stadermann and Over de Linden [...] who thought they could make a lot of money from the manuscript or a publication of it."

The facts are in strong contrast to your speculation, which undermines your whole theory:

Letter Verwijs to Over de Linden (16-10-1867):
"mag ik [...] een voorstel doen met U te onderhandelen over de overname?"
=> "may I do a proposal to negotiate with you about selling it?"

Letter Over de Linden to Verwijs (17-10-1867):
"Een familiestuk dat zoo ter bewaring wordt aanbevolen mag men zijne kinderen niet ontvreemden, dus niet verkoopen."
and "ik wil het toch voor geen waarde ruilen"
=> "One can´t take an inherited family treasure, that is advised to be protected in this way, from ones children, so it can´t be sold."
and "I don´t want to sell it for any price"

Verwijs in his report to the Provincial Executive of Friesland (17-12-1867):
"Hij eiste bepaaldelijk dat het oude Hs. [Oera Linda Boek] eerst in zijn geheel voor hem vertaald. Was dit geschied, kende hij er den inhoud van, dan zoude hij er volstrekt niet tegen zijn dat het Hs. werd uitgegeven, mits het maar niets bevatte dat zijne familie kon compromitteeren!"
=> "He demanded explicitly that the old manuscript [OLB] would first all be translated for him. When this was done, and he knew the content, he would by no means object publication, as long as it did not contain anything that could compromise his family."

Never (when he had the chance) did Over de Linden make an attemt to make money from selling it or from publication.
This means that your speculation about Over de Linden and Stadermann hoping to make money from it is nonsense.

Posted 06 January 2014 - 05:27 PM
View PostAbramelin, on 04 January 2014 - 11:26 PM, said:
If you can read and understand the language used in the OLB, you can read and understand Dutch.
It is not that different at all, and it should be no surprise it isn't.

View PostKnul, on 06 January 2014 - 12:20 PM, said:
To understand the OLB completely one should know Dutch, English, Frisian, German and Latin plus various Dutch and Frisian dialects, (e.g. myk - made in Prov. Zeeland).  I know one person who knew all of them: J.H. Halbertsma.

You have the illusion that the language of the OLB is so easy to understand (for who has a basic knowledge of languages), but from the start you had a translation at hand and I doubt that you ever read und undersood it all without one.

Eelco Verwijs (1830-1880), who was one of the best and most famous linguists of his time, and who published about etymology, had so much trouble translating it, that he gave up after a few years (!), although he was very interested.

Read the following fragments from letters by Verwijs (my translation, original text below):

1) 1867 june 28 - to J.F. Jansen
"This morning I copied a whole speech which is not all clear to me yet, but which, as far as I could judge from the copy, is most curious."

2) 1867 oct. 13 - to C. Over de Linden (OdL)
"As I said, I was overjoyed with the discovery and told many of my friends. Part of it was quite easy to understand and, although seeming to be of younger age, not different from the language of the Oldfrisian laws from the 13th and 14th century. But there were also fragments, that I didn't and still don't understand and that will take much meticulous study, before I can clarify them."

3) 1867 oct. 16 - to OdL
"I really can't promise you the translation of a separate part, as there are difficulties in it, that may take weeks of study."

4) 1867 oct. 19 - to OdL
"It certainly is a manuscript from one of your ancestors - which means your family is very old - , that was copied many times and by all means deserves to become known. [...] The importance of the manuscript will give the ancient name of the Oera Linda's a radiance, brighter than any of the oldest noble families."

5) 1868 nov. 21 - to OdL
"The case is of enough interest to me, to finally dive into it properly."

6) 1869 may 17 - to OdL
"Then I hope to take the whole with me in this summer holiday and start translating."

7) 1869 nov. 11 - to OdL
"I finally return the manuscript to you, but you will be sorry that the translation is still missing. [...] Here and there translation is very easy and it can be done at first sight; but other parts contain difficulties, that take much time and study. But I hope to be able to help you soon now."

8) 1869 nov. 11 - to J. Winkler
"Here and there translation is easy, but there are also quite some difficulties and unknown words. I know that if I would start, I would not rest before I have solved them, and that way I would spend much too much time on it. [...] The case is of much interest to me, so I don't want to fully withdraw from it. [...] Such an etymological quest is very much of my liking, [...] It's odd that it contains some very old words and that also the forms point at a previous linguistic era, while other expressions sound so very modern." [Verwijs could not (or hardly) imagine that some expressions were old, which does not prove that they could not in fact have neen old.]

~ ~ ~

Original fragments in dutch

1) "Vanmorgen heb ik een geheele speech gekopieerd die mij nog niet in allen deelen duidelijk is, maar die, zoo verre ik uit de kopie kon opmaken, allercurieust is."

2) "Zoo als ik zeide, was ik hoogelijk ingenomen met den vondst en deelde dien velen mijner vrienden mede. Een deel er van was zeer makkelijk verstaanbaar en, hoewel wat jonger kleur vertoonende, niet ongelijk aan de taal der oude Friesche Wetten uit de 13e en 14e eeuw. Doch er waren ook passages in, die ik niet verstond en nog niet versta en waarvoor nog al eenige naauwgezette studie zal noodig zijn, om ze te kunnen oplossen."

3) "U nu de vertaling van een los op zich zelf staand katern binnen kort te beloven, dat kan ik waarlijk niet, daar er zich moeilijkheden in voordoen, die misschien weken studie vereischen."

4) "'t Is zeker een meermalen overgeschreven handschrift van een Uwer voorvaders - en dan is Uwe familie zeer oud -, dat alleszins verdiend gekend te worden. [...] Door de belangrijkheid van het handschrift zal ook de eeuwenoude naam der Oera Linda's een glans verkrijgen, dien de oudste adelijke geslachten missen."

5) "En dan interesseert mij de zaak genoeg om ze eens goed aan te pakken."

6) "Dan hoop ik het geheel in mijne vacantie dezen zomer mee te nemen en mij dan aan de vertaling te zetten."

7) "Eindelijk zend ik U het handschrift terug, waarbij Gij de vertaling evenwel nog met smart zult missen. [...] Hier en daar is de vertaling zeer gemakkelijk en kan van 't blad geschieden; maar op andere plaatsen komen weer moeilijkheden voor, die nog al tijd en studie vereischen. 'k Hoop evenwel U nu eerlang te kunnen helpen."

8) "Hier en daar kan men de vertaling zoo opschrijven, doch er schuilen ook nog al moeilijkheden en vreemde woorden in. Nu weet ik wel, zoo ik er eens mee begin, ik niet eerder rust voor ik die heb opgelost, en zoo zou ik er veel te veel tijd aan besteden. [...] De zaak interesseert mij nog al, en 't is mijn doel dan ook niet om er mijne handen geheel af te trekken. [...] Zoo'n etymologische kwestie valt nog al in mijn smaak, [...] 't Is vreemd, dat er enkele zeer oude woorden in schuilen, dat ook de vormen op een vorig tijdperk der taal wijzen, terwijl andere uitdrukkingen zoo heel nieuw klinken."

Posted 06 January 2014 - 06:24 PM
View PostAbramelin, on 06 January 2014 - 05:44 PM, said:
Yes, I had a translation at hand, and that is how I learned OLBan. As soon as I got the hang of it, I did the translations on my own, as you WELL KNOW.

Which you could not have done without the existing translations.

My translations were often different from Ottema's and Sandbach's, and I based those translations on my high-school knowledge of Middle/Old Dutch, and what I discovered online, using Old Frisian, Old Norse, and Old/Middle Dutch dictionaries. Dictionaries not available to both Ottema and Sandbach.

Neither were those dictionaries available to your supposed creator(s).

So you think you made some minor improvements here and there.
That doesn't mean the whole book can easily be understood for anyone with the basic knowlege that you have.

As for the similaries between Fryan and modern Dutch and Frisian;
There are also such similarities between Fryan and German and Scandic languages, as there are between those languages themselves. Some terms and expressions have survived in this, some in that language. What else could we expect from a real ancient text? You would be surprised how many Fryan words survived to-the-letter in Norse and Icelandic (while being very different from Dutch).

And again: your only 'proof' is that you can't imagine that some words are that old.
That is no valid evidence at all.

Many breakthroughs in science have happened in the past that people could not imagine before they were accepted reality.

Posted 07 January 2014 - 07:19 AM
View PostKnul, on 06 January 2014 - 09:16 PM, said:
Unfortunately, you overlooked that he [Verwijs] called the OLB nonsense of recent date, a joke etc.
He didn't use those words. I challenge you to quote him. He got a good job in Leiden working on a big dictionary and he will have feared to waste his reputation, as public opinion already turned against the OLB. His new bosses in 'Holland' may not have liked the possible political implications of the book either.

By the way, Verwijs was no Oldfrisian specialist and didn't know about dialects like Winkler did.

Winkler may have known something about dialects, but he wasn't able to do the job either.
It is simple psychology (as is the case with Verwijs): rather than admitting he was not able to translate it, it was easier to say he did not want to, because he believed it was fake.

Posted 07 January 2014 - 09:00 AM
View PostKnul, on 06 January 2014 - 09:16 PM, said:
Verwijs was no Oldfrisian specialist and didn't know about dialects like Winkler did.

Winkler was a medical doctor (general practitioner) who was interested in dialects and Frisian history, but did he publishanything significant about Oldfrisian, Olddutch or Oldgerman?

Verwijs was more than a specialist Oldfrisian; he was a philologist.
He published about Old- (or 'middle'-) Dutch and etymology.
Winkler was (literally) an amateur compared to Verwijs.

That is why Verwijs was considered to be the main suspect of having created the whole OLB (by De Jong, 1926), or at least its language (by Winkler, Jensma).

Say, Knul, were your aleged creators of the OLB Oldfrisian specialists?

Posted 13 January 2014 - 05:58 PM
In museum Schloß Wilhelmshöhe, Kassel, I saw an interesting painting (1760, Nikolaus Hoffmann).
It has the oldest known (to me) picture of a ´christmas´ tree and, even more interesting a female ´santa´.
Why have I never heard of this before?
At least in some part of Germany this must have been an old tradition, and it may very well go back to the time that the Yule-feast was (also) a celebration of Frya´s invention of the JOL-letters, as described in the OLB.

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Posted 14 January 2014 - 03:32 PM
View PostNO-ID-EA, on 13 January 2014 - 10:03 PM, said:
Is that supposed to be a nativity scene on the table... or just some toys of the kids ??
Nice lion (of Judah) picture prominently placed on the wall ?

Looks like toys to me.
Yes the lion is remarkably detailed.
The old Frisian coat of arms was two lions (yellow on blue) and the one of the counts of Frisia (later Holland) was a lion too (red on yellow).
Flanders (Belgium) has a black lion on yellow and current Netherlands a yellow lion on blue.
So no reason to assume any link to judea.

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Flanders (southern Netherlands):
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Friesland (incl. Westfriesland):
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Posted 14 January 2014 - 04:55 PM
Also worth considering is:

1) this line from the OLB (Sandbach p.17):

"Powerful Frya! At the glance of her eye the lion lay down at her feet"

2) the fact that Frya is associated with cats:

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3) the Germanic tribe-name Chatti (= cats? = lions?)

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Posted 15 January 2014 - 09:22 AM
View PostNO-ID-EA, on 13 January 2014 - 10:03 PM, said:
Nice lion (...) picture prominently placed on the wall?

I had a little revelation:

In the OLB the word for lion(s) is exactly the same as the verb to believe: "LÁWA".

Dutch: geloven, related to loven (praise, english: love), beloven (promise)
German: glauben, loben, lieben

lion - english
leeuw - dutch
liuw - frisian
löwe - german
løve - danish, norse
lejon - swedish
ljón - icelandic
leyvur - faroese
lion - french
leo - latin

Will explain in more detail when I have time.

Posted 17 January 2014 - 06:39 PM
View Postgestur, on 01 December 2013 - 04:49 PM, said:
OLB-believers are dangerous!

"Its mythologic-religious character makes the book loved by some loners, whose belief in secret conspiracies entices them to commit (suicide) attacks." (my translation)

Original dutch text:
"Het mythologisch-religieuze karakter maakt het boek eveneens geliefd bij sommige einzelgängers, wier geloof in geheime samenzweringen hen tot (zelfmoord)aanslagen verleidt."

Source: "Bedrog, bijgeloof en zelfmoord in Friesland" (Deceit, superstition and suicide in Friesland) in Eos Magazine (sept. 2011), by penny-a-liner Chris Reinewald.

I asked the scribbler for a source and if he knew an example of such an attack. He answered that he had promised his anonymous source to not reveil any details in order to protect him/her.

I found a fascinating possible piece of the puzzle.

Jensma suggested (don't recall where exactly now) that the OLB had made 'victims' (people who believed in its authenticity).
Other authors have suggested that it would be a product of dark forces.

In 1983 Jensma acted (main character) in a short film, titled "Stof tot Stilte" (he used the name Goffe Theunis).

This film can very well be seen as an allegory about the OLB.

The plot in short:
A young photographer falls in love with a mysterious, unattainable woman who was in the background of some photos he took.
He does not know that the woman was sent there on purpose by an man (fate, doom?), to make him the victim of his evil plot.
He gets obsessed with her and enters a limbo of doubt: Does she still live, is she real at all?
At the end he meets her, but she somehow dissappoints him, anyway he looses his mind and commits suicide.
The film ends with the mysterious evil man looking for a new victim.

See and decide for yourself:

If someone from the group of friends who made this film got obsessed with the OLB, lost his mind and/ or commited suicide, this would explain the fear around the OLB that I sense in Jensma's book (and in Friesland in general). Psychologically it is a well known mechanism to ridicule or demonise something that is feared. (Just speculating out loud.)

Posted 18 January 2014, 11:33 AM
View PostKnul, on 18 January 2014 - 09:47 AM, said:
... Dr. J.H. Halbertsma

IF Halbertsma would have written the OLB,

1) it would have been more than a masterpiece and he would have known that. He would have wanted the honour. His family would have known that he had worked on it.
2) he would have included Hindelopen, which he was convinced to be the most pristine Frisian city.
3) why would the family Over de Linden (Ovira Linda, Oera Linda) have been included?
4) how would it have gotten into the hands over Over de Linden and/ or Stadermann?

Posted 19 January 2014, 10:21 AM
View PostKnul, on 19 January 2014 - 10:06 AM, said:
Who else could have written it ?

That Halberstma did not write it, does not mean someone else must have written it.
Start considering the possibility that it is authentic and all will begin to make much more sense.

Forum #40 (12 nov. - 30 dec. 2013)

More found on VVR.ALDA => Vrotalt, Urotalt, Ourotalt.
First, the original fragment by Herodotus and some translations.

Inquiries III-8 (Thalia), written 440 BCE
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(George Rawlinson, 1860)
Bacchus they call in their language Orotal,
and Urania, Alilat.

(George Campbell Macaulay, 1890)
Now they call Dionysos Orotalt
and Urania they call Alilat.

(Shlomo Felberbaum, 2003)
And they name Dionysus Orotalt
and Urania Alilat.
"According to the 5th century BCE Greek historian Herodotus, Orotalt was a god of Pre-Islamic Arabia whom he identified with Dionysus [...]
Merriam-Webster's Encyclopedia of World Religions states that Orotalt is a phonetic transcription of the name of the sun god Ruda."

wikipedia/Ruda (deity)
"Ruda is a deity that was of paramount importance in the Arab pantheon of gods worshipped by the North Arabian tribes of pre-Islamic Arabia. [...]
The oldest reference to Ruda is found in the annals of Esarhaddon who ruled over the Assyrian empire from 681 to 669 BC. The name is transliterated into English from the original Akkadian as Ru-ul-da-a-a-ú and he is mentioned among the gods of the Arabs."

"Ruldaiu was a god featured in Arab mythology according to the Annals of Sennacherib (eighth century BC). Arabic inscriptions mention a god called Ruda. Herodotus calls him Ortalt."
http://nabataea.net/kedar.html (Dan Gibson)
Regarding their religion, Assyrian inscriptions tell us that Sennacherib captured of several Arabian deities in the Kedarite city of Dumah. The chief deity was Atarsamain, or the morning star of heaven. (the counterpart of Mesopotamian Ishtar). The tribal league led by the Kedarites was known as "the confederation of Atarsamain, and their cult was led by a series of queen-priestesses in Dumah. The rest of their pantheon of gods consisted of Dai, Nuhai (Nuhay), Ruldai (Ruda), Abirillu, and Atarquruma. Rock graffiti in the Thamudic language reveals that Ruda was known as the evening star, and Nuhay was the sun-god, and they were worshiped in addition to Atarsamain 'the morning star.' Herodotus, in the fifth century BC identified two deities worshiped among the Arabs, as a fertility god called Orotalt (perhaps Ruda, as identified by Macdonald in North Arabian in the First Millennium BC, 1360), and a sky goddess know as Allat. (Herodotus III,3.) Later Allat became referred to in the masculine form as Allah)
RuLDai => RLD => (?) uRaLDa (wRaLDa)
If Urotalt, Orotalt, Ruldai etc. (containing UR & ALD, resp. RLD) was a primal god of some early Arabs (8th c. BCE), this can be most relevant.

=== Posted 17 November 2013 - 06:17 PM
View PostOtharus, on 15 October 2012 - 08:57 PM, said:
English: 'read', reason (council, advice)
Dutch: raad, rede
German: rat
Swedish: råd

In OLB, the word RÉD is used many times, in many varieties.
It is an important term and can be translated in different (though similar) ways:
reason, reasoning, advice, council, argument, consideration, etc.

Plural of the word in OLB is RÉDNERÉDENE or RÉDNUM:

[O-S p.19]
ik zeg u met redenen [raadgevingen]
I tell you beforehand [with reasons, councils]

[O-S p.129]
De redeneringen [redelijkheden] werden geëindigd
The conferences [reasons, reasonings] were ended

[O-S p.139]
hunne valsche redeneering [raadgevingen]
their false reasoning [councils]

[O-S p.207]
tapten hunne redenen uit een ander vat
tapped their advice [reasonings] out of another cask

[O-S p.229]
[dat] strijdt tegen alle reden [redelijkheid]
[that] goes against all reason

[O-S p.235]
Door deze en andere redeneringen [redenen, raadgevingen]
By arguments of this kind [through that and other reasons/ considerations]

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Triratna or Triratana is a key term in Buddhism, usually translated as Three-Jewels, -Treasures or -Refuges, Triple-Gem or Precious-Triad. That "Tri" means "three" is undisputed.
But "Ratna" or "Ratana" could IMO very well be related to the Oldfrisian plural of RÉD, as shown in the quotes above.
It would surely make sense.

BTW, the dutch and german word for wheel ("rad") may also be related as it is a sacred symbol, associated with wisdom:

rad, wiel - dutch, german
(hjul - danish, swedish, norwegian)
(hjól - icelandic)

=== Posted 18 November 2013 - 11:32 AM
Are etymologists blind, or do they just not want to see?

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etymonline/radius :
radius (n.) 1590s, "cross-shaft," from Latin radius "staff, stake, rod; spoke of a wheel; ray of light, beam of light; radius of a circle," of unknown origin. Perhaps related to radix "root...

etymologiebank/radius :
Ontleend aan Latijn radius ‘straal’, waarvan de etymologie onduidelijk is.
(Derived from Latin radius 'beam', of which the etymology is unclear.)

In Latin, radius not only means beam (of sunlight), but also spoke of a wheel.
Wheel in german and dutch is 'rad'.
('Radio' is ofcourse derived from the 'latin' word radius.)

The beauty of the six-spoke wheel or JOL (as it is named in OLB), is that it contains six triangles with sides of equal length (the length of the radius).

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Another important term from geometry is ratio (which also means reason).

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View Postgestur, on 17 November 2013 - 06:17 PM, said:
In OLB, the word RÉD is used many times, in many varieties.
It is an important term and can be translated in different (though similar) ways:
reason, reasoning, advice, council, argument, consideration, etc.

Plural of the word in OLB is RÉDNERÉDENE or RÉDNUM:

In the following posts, I will show other varieties of the OLB-word RÉD, and their etymological implications.

=== Posted 18 November 2013 - 02:32 PM
ratio, reason, advice, counsel, solution, plan, consultation, deliberation, consideration, etc.

raed - oldenglish
ráð - oldnorse
råd - swedish
rád - oldsaxon
rat - german
rát - olddutch, oldgerman
raet - middledutch
réd - oldfrisian
ried - frisian
raad - dutch

In a previous post I listed the fragments with the plural of the word (RÉDNE, RÉDENE, RÉDNUM).
Here four more, used in the meaning of council, consult, board:

[015/14] BY RÉDUM FON ALLE STÁTA ET SÉMNE ==> councils of all states together
[020/10] BUTA MÉNA RÉDA ==> outside of (or apart from) common councils
[024/07] WIL THI KÉNING DVA ÀND SINA RÉDA NAVT ==> his councils
[025/17] BY MÉNA RÉDUM ==> by common councils

Now I will list the ones with the more common singular, to demonstrate how important the term is in the OLB.
I have not translated RÉD, as it can have many possible meanings as listed above.

[001/14] WAS AL GO.RÉD ANDA TYS ==> gau-réd (gau = country subdivision)
[002/07] HÀVON HJA FRYAS RÉD MINACHT ==> Frya's réd
[004/02] MACHT IK JO RÉD JÉVA ==> give réd
[005/07] ADELAS RÉD IS VPFOLGATH == Adela's réd
[011/17] HÍR IS MIN RÉD ==> my réd
[011/18] GODE RÉD ÀND GODE DÉD ==> good réd
[014/01] FOLGATH J MIN RÉD ==> my réd
[014/12] VPPA RÉD THÉRE MODER ==> réd of the mother
[017/12] SÁHWERSA ÀMMAN RÉD GÉRT ==> desire réd
[...] TIL HJU NÉN RÉD BÉTRE IS THÀN KVA RÉD ==> no réd is better than bad réd
[018/18] HETH EN MODER ÀRGE RÉD JÉVEN ==> given bad réd
[022/15] RJUCHT DVA ÀND NÉI FRYA.S RÉD ==> Frya's réd
[024/05] FRYA.S RÉDJEVINGA ==> Frya's rédgivings
[034/02] NW JÉV IK RÉD VM NAWET ==> I give réd
[034/18] THAT SINE.BYLD FON FRYA.S RÉD.JÉVINGA ==> Frya's rédgivings
[036/03] RÉD ÀND HELP ==> réd and help
[037/08] THÀT THIN RÉD GOD SY ==> that your réd is good
[038/04] GODE-RÉD TO JÉVANE ==> to give good réd
[038/25] ÁK WRDON HJA TO RÉDJÉVSTARE BRUKATH. ==> rédgiveresses
THACH THI.RÉD WAS [...] ==> this réd
[052/28] HÉDON HJRA RÉD WARLÁSED ==> her réd
[053/04] NÉN RÉD NI FOLLISTAR ==> no réd
[056/13] FORA.MOND JEFTA RÉD.JÉVAR ==> rédgiver
[060/17] MODER.IS RÉD WÀRTH WNNEN ==> mother's réd
[062/12] THA RÉD THÉR HJU LÉNADE ==> the réd
[062/17] THI RÉD THÉR HJU JEF ==> this réd
[067/23] VNDER MINA RÉD ÀND HODA LÉVA ==> my réd
[073/10] VMB RÉD TO JÉVANE ==> to give réd
[075/21] SA.R RÉD WISTE ==> knew réd
[081/18] ÀND HJRA RÉDJÉVINGA WARLÁSD HÉDE ==> rédgivings
[089/09] THJU RÉD ÉNER FÁM IN WNNEN ==> the réd of a fám
[091/19] THA FORME RÉD ADELA.S ==> réd Adela's
[091/29] TO HEFTANE AN ADELA.S RÉD ==> Adela's réd
[106/07] IS I THINA RÉD NAVT GOD.NOCH ==> your réd
[108/15] RÉD TO JÉVANE ==> to give réd
[108/25] RÉD TO JÉVANE
[113/03] SÁ SKIL IK THI EN RÉD JÉVA ==> give réd
[118/01] THÉRE MODER.IS RÉD BIWINNA ==> mother's réd
[118/10] IK WIL THI EN RÉD JEVA ==> give réd
[119/23] AGON WI HJRA RÉD TO FRÉJANDE ==> to ask réd
[131/18] THERE MODERIS RÉD ==> mother's réd
[133/32] KONE.RÉD ALSA HÉT MIN FORMA ==> name: valorous réd
[145/09] FRISO NE GÉRDE NÉN RÉD NER BODO ==> no réd nor messengers
[153/10] JUD IS FRISO JOW RÉD JÉVAR ==> rédgiver
[158/10] HÍR IS THÀT SKRIFT MITH GOSA.S RÉD ==> Gosa's réd
[161/06] HÍR IS NV MIN RÉD ==> my réd
[204/27] THA ALDA RÉD JEVA ==> give réd
[207/12] ÀJEN FRIA.S RÉD ==> Fria's réd

Some more with the verbs:
RÉDA - to advise, reason, reckon, read (out loud) etc. [dutch: (aan-)raden, redeneren, rekenen];
BIRÉDA - to decide, deliberate, prepare, concoct, cook [dutch: beraden, besluiten, bereiden (braden)];
UTBRÉDA (from UTBIRÉDA) - to expand, extend, develop [dutch: uitbreiden]
TOBIRÉDA - to prepare, concoct [dutch: toebereiden, bewerken]

[004/12] FORTH SKOLD.IK RÉDA ==> I would reason/ advise
[012/14] THÉRVMBE RÉD IK JO ==> I advise you
[012/22] IK RÉDE JO ==> I advise you
[012/29] THACH IK RÉDE JO ==> I advise you
[023/16] BIRÉDATH HO FÉLO MANNA HJA SKILUN STJURA ==> decided how many
[023/30] MITH SINUM HAVEDMANNA TO RÉDA ==> to reason/ reckon
[060/03] THJU MODER RÉDE ==> the mother reasons/ advises
[072/23] VP VSA FJVR BRÉDA ==> prepare/ broil on our fire
[074/05] [HJA] RÉDEN GÉRT HJU SKOLDE GÁW TO BITTA ==> they advised
[079/29] THJU MODER SAND BODON ÀND RÉD ER ==> the mother advised
[103/18] THÉRVR MÜGON WY RÉDA ==> we may reason/ reckon
[105/31] FESTA HET VS RÉDEN ==> Festa had advised us
[122/21] NÉARCHUS [...] RÉDE HIM OWERS TO DVANDE ==> Néarchus advised
[135/25] HJA BIRÉDON ET SÉMINE ==> they deliberated/ decided together
[140/15] DROCHT.LIK RÉDA ==> reason/ advise falsely
[140/16] BRÉD HIRI SELVA UT ==> expanded/ developed itself
[149/09] GOD RÉDEN ANDERON THA JUTTAR ==> good/ well reasoned/ advised
[201/04] TO BIRÉDE HUDUM ÀND LINNE ==> prepared skins/ furs and linen

=== Posted 18 November 2013 - 03:00 PM
RÉD 2 - negative

VRÉD, VRRÉD (noun) - treason, ill-advise, unreason (dutch: verraad, german: verrat)
VRRÉDA (verb) - to betray, give away (dutch: verraden, german: verraten)
VRRÉDELIK (adj.) - treacherous, perfidous, insidious, traitorous, treasonous (dutch: verraderlijk)
VNRÉDALIK (adj.) - unreasonable, irrational (dutch: onredelijk, irrationeel)
RÉDALÁS (adj.) - desperate, senseless, reasonless (dutch: radeloos, redeloos)

[008/06] VNRÉDALIKA FINDA ==> irrational Finda
[043/26] THÀT I VS GVNG VRRÉDE BY THA FYAND ==> betray us to the enemy
[081/01] VRÉD KLÍWADE VPPER SÉTEL ==> unreason/ treason climbed upon the seat
[081/21] THRVCH THA GRÉVA VRRÉDEN ==> betrayed by the gréva
[087/01] HO HJA VRRÉDEN WÉRON ==> how they were betrayed
[094/06] THAHWILA THÉR ALREK IN NOCHT BÁJADE WAS VRRÉD LÁND ==> unreason/ treason had landed
[095/17] VRRÉDELIKA MÁGÍ ==> treacherous mágí
[096/28] THJU MÀM WÉRE RÉDALÁS ==> were reasonless/ desperate
[114/26] BURCH.HÉRA HÉDON VRRÉD PLÉGAD ==> had committed treason
[159/22] THÀT STEMLÉTH HJAM VRRÉDA MOCHT ==> might give away/ betray them
[160/10] NAVT LONGER MÁR VRRÉDON ==> no longer give away/ betray

=== Posted 18 November 2013 - 03:36 PM
RÉD 3 - ready, rapid, rather (and to ride?)

ready - english
réidh - irish
barod - welsh
gereed, bereid, paraat - dutch
bereit - german
prêt - french
prest - basque
paratos - latin

rad, rap - dutch
rat, gherat, gerade - olddutch
raede, geraede, hraeð - oldenglish
rapid - english
hrad - oldgerman
rapidus - latin

RÉDER (comparative of the above)
rather - english
hraðr - oldnorse
rad - swedish dialect
'radder', rapper (eerder, liever, veeleer) - dutch

[006/03] THJU BURCH MÉDÉA.S.BLIK WAS RÉD ==> was ready
[021/31] VMBE RÉD TO WERTHANDE MITH.A WÀPNE ==> to become ready/ rapid/ able with the weapons
[046/08] ÉVIN RÉD LÉSA MUGA ==> may read (=LÉSA!) as ready/ rapidly/ easily
[057/12] THÁ HJA RÉD WÉRON ==> when they were ready
[065/19] RÉD ÀND HARD HROPA ==> rapid and hard
[080/31] THA FROST THJU BRIGGE RÉD HÉDE ==> when frost had the bridge ready
[082/13] ÉR THA WÉRE RÉD WÉRE ==> before the defence was ready
[092/10] HJU WILDE RÉDER ENNEN BOSTA HA ==> she rather wanted
[110/25] INVPPER FLÍT LÉI.N GRÁTE FLÁTE RÉD ==> a great fleet lied ready
[119/07] THÁ DÉI RÉD WÉRE ==> when day was ready/ when day broke (dutch: dageraad/ dag-gereed)
[121/10] THA ORA SKOLDE RÉDER STERVA WILLA ==> would rather want to die
[122/13] JAHWÉDER STAND RÉD ==> stood ready
[124/32] RÉDER WILLATH WÁGA ==> rather want
[129/26] FRISO LÉT VS WITHER RÉD MAKJA ==> make ready
[132/01] KÀN IK RÉD HINNE STAPPA ==> I can rapidly
[144/06] JEF.ET WERK RÉD SÍ ==> if the work is ready

A verb, possibly derived from RÉD in the meaning of rapid: BIRÉDA = to ride [a horse or other animal - dutch: (be-)rijden]


=== Posted 18 November 2013 - 04:58 PM
View Postgestur, on 18 November 2013 - 02:32 PM, said:
RÉDA - to advise, reason, reckon, read (out loud) etc. [dutch: (aan-)raden, redeneren, rekenen];
BIRÉDA - to decide, deliberate, prepare, concoct, cook [dutch: beraden, besluiten, bereiden (braden)];
UTBRÉDA (from UTBIRÉDA) - to expand, extend, develop [dutch: uitbreiden]
TOBIRÉDA - to prepare, concoct [dutch: toebereiden, bewerken]

I think the verb TOHRÉDA belongs to this list:

[059/19] MITH A FINNESTE WÉRUM TO HRÉDA ==> prepare/ load with the finest goods
[...] TWÉLIF SKÉPA LÉT.I.TOHRÉDA ==> he had twelve ships prepare/ load
[149/23] TO HRÉD MITH ÍSERE KÉDNE ==> equiped/ prepared with iron chains

RÉDAR (shipowner, or actually: someone who equips ships)
reder - dutch

From verb (to make ready):
reden - dutch
raedan - oldenglish
réda - oldfrisian
riede - frisian
reiða - oldnorse
reda - swedish
raidjan - gothic

[029/02] MOTON THA RÉDAR NJVDA FÁRA BESTE LIF.TOCHTUN ==> the rédar must take care of the best victuals

RÉDSKIP (tools, utensils; literally 'readship', from ready)
redskap - swedish
reiðskapr - oldnorse
gereedschap - dutch
gereitschaft - german

[079/27] ÍSERE WÉPNE ÀND RÉDSKIP ==> iron weapons and tools

FÁR.RÉD.SKURUM (dutch: voorraadschuren) - warehouses, storehouses
FÁR-RÉD (german: vorrat) = provision, stock
SKURUM = barns, sheds

[128/01] MITH.A KÉNINGLIKA FÁR.RÉD.SKURUM ==> with the royal storehouses

And finally RÉDE = ratio, reason, sense, mind, intelligence
rede - dutch, german
reden - frisian
reda, redia, radia - oldgerman
retha - olddutch
rethia - oldsaxon
rethe - oldfrisian
rathjo - gothic

[065/06] THAT.ET VR SIN RÉDE NAVT MOCHT TO WÁKANE ==> that it could not watch over its reason/ sense/ ratio

=== Posted 18 November 2013 - 05:40 PM
Since I like to be thorough...
View Postgestur, on 18 November 2013 - 02:32 PM, said:
UTBRÉDA (from UTBIRÉDA) - to expand, extend, develop [dutch: uitbreiden]
I missed two fragments with this verb:

[003/04] SINA LÉR VTBRÉDA ==> expand/ develop/ broaden his teachings (learnings)
[140/16] BRÉD HIRI SELVA UT FON.T ÁSTA TO.T WESTA ==> expanded itself from east to west

Isn't it rational to suggest that the adjective 'broad' is derived from this verb, as the verb means to expand, extend, widen, broaden?

broad - english
breed - dutch
bred - swedish, danish, norwegian
breit - german
breidd - icelandic
bréd - oldsaxon, oldfrisian
breiðr - oldnorse
brád - oldenglish
braiths - gothic

[047/20] THÀT BRÉDE TWISKLÁND  ==> the broad Twiskland
[106/19] BRÉD THRIJA SJUGUN FÉT ==> braod thrice seven feet
107/29] THET BRÉDE BUTA ==> the broad outside
[128/16] IN ÉNE BRÉDE LINE ==> in a braod line

=== Posted 19 November 2013 - 07:01 PM
View PostKnul, on 19 November 2013 - 05:31 PM, said:
If you want to defend Over de Linden and Stadermann, please give us evidence, that they did not lie and fraud.
A suspect is to be considered innocent, until proven guilty.
The burden of proof lies with the accuser, not with the defender.

Why did Over de Linden hide the name of Stadermann from Verwijs, Ottema and his grandson ?
"Hide"? He just did not mention te name, probably because it was irrelevant.
How would this proof he lied?

Why did he come out with the O.L.B. after the dead of Stadermann ?
Why would that be suspect?

Why did het omit the trip to Enkhuizen in 1845 in his story for his grandson, which has been confirmed by his son-in-law  ?
Perhaps he thought it was irrelevant, because the trip had no succes.
As I have argued before, I suspect OdL of a small lie: that he took the OLB under pressure from his niece in 1848, or maybe even without her consent (as her son Hendrik Kofman claimed later), instead of receiving it from his aunt by surprise. But I see no reason to doubt that he had the OLB in his possession since 1848 and that it had been with his family in Enkhuizen before that. Many witnesses confirm this. You think they all lied?

Why owned Over de Linden learned boks, which he (according to his son and Ottema) could not read and understand ?
He had many interests and wrote much himself. He was self-taught and tried to make sense of the manuscript through study.
What is the source for your claim that Ottema and his son would have thought he could not read or understand those books?

A grandson of Stadermann wrote to the Frisian Society, that these boooks belonged to his grandfather. Evidence enough, I would say.
So OdL got some books from book-trader Stadermann.
How does this prove anything at all?

Is the best 'evidence' you have?
Using your method, I can prove that Donald Duck and Mickey Mouse wrote the OLB.

=== Posted 20 November 2013 - 10:25 AM
View PostKnul, on 19 November 2013 - 11:10 PM, said:
Cornelis over de Linden himself kept silent about the trip of 1845 and Stadermann.
Cornelis' statements of how he had received the manuscript in 1848 were inconsistent and in confict with other witness accounts.

Cornelis basically claimed that his aunt had given it to him by surprise:

- Letter to Eelco Verwijs (7 Oct. 1867):
Some 18 years ago, visiting my family, my aunt gave me two manuscripts, that she had not been allowed to give me when her husband was still alive, although my grandfather had demanded it.

- In a diary (1873 or 1874):
Once when I visited my mother and some other family, I was at my aunts at a moment when her second husband Koop Meylhof was not at home. I think it was in the year 1847 or -8. We were in the garden that I loved because I had such good memories of when my grandparents lived there. A pear tree carried three ripe pears that I asked for, saying that since grandfathers death, I had not tasted fruits from this garden. She agreed and said: "Now that you mention your grandfather, I have something for you that I had to keep until you had grown up. Hendrik..." (Hendrik Reuvers was the name of her first husband) "... didn't want me to give it to you, but Koops doesn't know about it, therefore I should give it to you now." I expected something like a watch, but she came back with an old book. Then she said: "This is, as grandfather said, an old Frisian manuscript from our ancestors. He didn't want to give it to your father, because he wasn't interested, therefore I had to keep it for you."
I put it under my coat and could hardly hide my disappointment. "You don't seem very happy with it", she said. "But if you knew how much your grandfather loved it, you'd be more happy. I only heard about it, but I believe they are Frisian papers of nobility. Etc." To please her, I showed some more gratitude, and promised that I would learn to read it and that I would tell her what it said. (She died in the year 49. So if she would not had given it to me, Koops would have laid his hands upon it - or one of her children, that are named Reuvers.) One might as well have given me Hebrew, I couldn't read any of it and when I told my wife that they were papers of nobility, she thought it was a joke.

That he would have received the OLB by surprise is in conflict with this:

According to Beckering Vinkers ("Wie heeft...?"), Over de Linden's stepson-in-law Jacob Munnik told in 1876, that in 1845 he went with Cornelis and the book-binder Ernst Stadermann from Den Helder, to Over de Linden's mother in Enkhuizen, where he [Cornelis], appearantly without succes, tried to convince her to give him an old family-book.

That he would have received it from his aunt Aafje is in conflict with this:

Hajo Last in Enkhuizer Courant (9 jan. 1934):
"Once when he [Cornelis] was visiting in Enkhuizen, he came to his cousin, and that was a widow Kofman [the daughter of aunt Aafje! If this was in the 1840-s, she was not yet a widow], in the Rietdijk, now called the Vijzelstraat [...]. She said to him: 'Kees, I have some old manuscripts here, from your grandfather, and he always said: "Those are meant to be passed on to my heir ['stamhouder']".' That's how his cousin gave them to him; I still remember him saying it, sitting at our table."

That it was given to him voluntarily is in conflict with this statement from the same witness (Hajo Last in E.C. of 9 jan. 1934):

In this article, Last claims that Hein (Hendrik) Kofman, a son of Cornelia Kofman-Reuvers (daughter of aunt Aafje) and colleague of Last had told him: Cousin Over de Linden stole it from my mother”.
(Note that Hajo Last reported the death of Anna Goemaat (in 1876), the mother of Cornelis. So he must have known the family well.)

So at least someone has been lying here.
It makes most sense to me that Cornelis lied about how he had received it (not that he had obtained it in 1848), simply because he had taken it by force or even without permission. Consider the fact that (he said) he initially believed it contained information about a family treasure.

I wonder, if you have ever read Ottema's De Koninklijke Akademie and the O.L.B.

Perhaps, I don't remember and don't have it at hand.
If it contains anything important, I will consider translating it for the forum.
Please do post the relevant parts or a link if it is available online.

=== Posted 22 November 2013 - 04:34 PM
Brand new discovery:

ANFANGA = αναφαινω, αμφαινω

In the following eleven fragments, I have translated ANFANG(A) with (to) start, but as I will reveal below, more poetic translations are possible.

1 [006/13]
Wralda [...] made the start
2 [014/24]
All things that one will start
3 [045/10]
The first symbol of Wralda,
also of the start or beginning from which time/tide came
4 [067/07]
Now the start of the end came
5 [084/07]
Thereafter, morningred shall again start to glimmer
6 [098/20]
Out of Wralda comes the start and the end
7 [103/07]
At the start small and naked
8 [115/22]
At the start of the Arnemonth
9 [141/11]
The laws that Wralda at the start laid in our mood
10 [141/19]
All that shall start
fourthousand years after Átland was sunken
11 [204/28]
At the start they were jealous (needy) of Reintja

T.ANFANG (noun) - 1,3,4,6,7,8,9,11
ANFANGA (verb) - 5,10
ANFANGJA (verb) - 2

anfang - german
aanvang - dutch
anevanc, aenvanc, anvanc - middledutch

anfangen - german
aanvangen - dutch
anevaen, aanvanghen - middledutch
anafáhan - oldgerman
onfá - oldfrisian
oanfange - frisian
onfón - oldenglish

The online Dutch etymology bible does not make the link yet with the Oldreek word αναφαινω (anafaino).

According to my dictionary, this can mean:
ignite, let shine, bring to light, reveal, inform
(laten lichten, laten schitteren, aan 't licht brengen, openbaren, meedelen)

That a link is evident is even more obvious from this Greek-German dictionary (1786):
establish, explain, demonstrate, reveal, come to the fore, begin
(aufstellen, darlegen, zur Schau bringen, bekant machen, zum Vorschein kommen, beginnen)

It was here and there assumed that "templum quod Tanfanae vocabant" from Tacitus Annales, referred to a goddess-temple, but the text really does not say so (see below).

Therefore, it may very well have been a temple where T.ANFANG was celebrated.

Tacitus (Annales I, 50-51)

Laeti neque procul Germani agitabant,
dum iustitio ob amissum Augustum,
post discordiis attinemur.

There was exultation among the Germans, not far off, 
as long as we were detained by the public mourning for the loss of Augustus, 
and then by our dissensions.

at Romanus agmine propero silvam Caesiam
limitemque a Tiberio coeptum scindit,
castra in limite locat,
frontem ac tergum vallo,
latera concaedibus munitus.

But the Roman general in a forced march, cut through the Caesian forest 
and the barrier which had been begun by Tiberius, 
and pitched his camp on this barrier, 
his front and rear being defended by intrenchments, 
his flanks by timber barricades.

inde saltus obscuros permeat
consultatque ex duobus itineribus breve et solitum sequatur
an inpeditius et intemptatum
eoque hostibus in cautum.

He then penetrated some forest passes but little known, 
and, as there were two routes, he deliberated whether he should pursue the short and ordinary route, 
or that which was more difficult unexplored, 
and consequently unguarded by the enemy.

delecta longiore via cetera adcelerantur:
etenim attulerant exploratores festam eam Germanis noctem
ac sollemnibus epulis ludicram.

He chose the longer way, and hurried on every remaining preparation, 
for his scouts had brought word that among the Germans it was a night of festivity, 
with games, and one of their grand banquets.

Caecina cum expeditis cohortibus praeire
et obstantia silvarum amoliri iubetur:
legiones modico intervallo sequuntur.

Caecina had orders to advance with some light cohorts, 
and to clear away any obstructions from the woods. 
The legions followed at a moderate interval.

iuvit nox sideribus inlustris,
ventumque ad vicos Marsorum
et circumdatae stationes stratis etiam tum per cubilia propterque mensas,
nullo metu,
non antepositi vigiliis:

They were helped by a night of bright starlight, 
reached the villages of the Marsi, 
and threw their pickets round the enemy, who even then were stretched on beds or at their tables, 
without the least fear, 
or any sentries before their camp, so complete was their carelessness and disorder;

adeo cuncta incuria disiecta erant neque belli timor,
ac ne pax quidem nisi languida et soluta inter temulentos.

and of war indeed there was no apprehension. 
Peace it certainly was not- merely the languid and heedless ease of half-intoxicated people.

Caesar avidas legiones quo latior populatio foret quattuor in cuneos dispertit;
quinquaginta milium spatium ferro flammisque pervastat.

Caesar, to spread devastation widely, divided his eager legions into four columns, 
and ravaged a space of fifty miles with fire and sword.

non sexus, non aetas miserationem attulit:
profana simul et sacra et celeberrimum illis gentibus templum quod Tanfanae vocabant 
solo aequantur. 

Neither sex nor age moved his compassion. 
Everything, sacred or profane, the temple too of Tamfana, as they called it, the special resort of all those tribes, 
was levelled to the ground.

sine vulnere milites, qui semisomnos,
inermos aut palantis ceciderant.

There was not a wound among our soldiers, who cut down a half-asleep, 
an unarmed, or a straggling foe.

excivit ea caedes Bructeros, Tubantes, Vsipetes,
saltusque, per quos exercitui regressus, insedere.

The Bructeri, Tubantes, and Usipetes, were roused by this slaughter, 
and they beset the forest passes through which the army had to return.

Sources: LatinEnglish

=== Posted 22 November 2013 - 04:52 PM
View PostKnul, on 20 November 2013 - 02:27 PM, said:
I have put the brochure on my website ...
the Academy of Sciences did not want to investigate the O.L.B., but individual members of the Department of Literature and History condemned the O.L.B. as mystification.

Thanks for all the work you did so far, creating a great source of information.
Yes, it shows the utter arrogance and ignorance of dutch academia.

It is not surprising why they were not happy with the OLB, as they were members of the powerful elite back then, and nowadays it's their lapdogs. (I can tell because I was one of them.)

Just one relevant quote from OLB to remind you:

[137/08] Jes.us

=== Posted 25 November 2013 - 09:59 AM

View PostNO-ID-EA, on 25 November 2013 - 09:21 AM, said:
... & he hine feire onfeng...
... and treated him courteously...
I think this should be:
... and he received him fairly...

ontvangen - dutch
empfangen - german
antfán - olddutch
undfá - oldfrisian
ontvaen, ontfane - middledutch

receive, accept, become pregnant, etc. - english
recevoir - french

another interesting use of a phrase close to OLB ,
... & heore nutene neotsume weren...
... and the (horde, herds, cattle, families, tribes?) were abundant.

I'd think:
... and their needs/ utilities/ requisites were sufficient...

nut, nood, benodigdheid - dutch
noodzaam, genoegzaam - dutch

=== Posted 01 December 2013 - 04:49 PM
OLB-believers are dangerous!

"Its mythologic-religious character makes the book loved by some loners, whose belief in secret conspiracies entices them to commit (suicide) attacks." (my translation)

Original dutch text:
"Het mythologisch-religieuze karakter maakt het boek eveneens geliefd bij sommige einzelgängers, wier geloof in geheime samenzweringen hen tot (zelfmoord)aanslagen verleidt."

Source: "Bedrog, bijgeloof en zelfmoord in Friesland" (Deceit, superstition and suicide in Friesland) in Eos Magazine (sept. 2011), by penny-a-liner Chris Reinewald.

I asked the scribbler for a source and if he knew an example of such an attack. He answered that he had promised his anonymous source to not reveil any details in order to protect him/her.

If such an attack has taken place, it was apparently not reported. Why would such a thing be kept a secret to the public?

=== Posted 03 December 2013 - 08:26 PM
The screaming silence from the paper research group can hardly mean anything else, than that they are not getting the results they want.

As I argued before, they should not have pre-assumed that the paper has to be from the 19th century.
They did this because two random paper makers said so in 1876 (one of whom had never even seen 13th century paper).
They completely ignored dr. Ottema's remarks to that so-called investigation.

They can't get their results straight, because they have excluded beforehand the possibility, that the paper is what the first page says it is; foreign 13th century (or older) paper.

Here are some random samples of 13th century Arab paper. (Source: www.islamicmanuscripts.info)
Doesn´t look much older than that of the OLB, does it?

1. copied in or before 1247 CE; "Al-Risala al-Qushayriyya"
Posted Image

2. copied 1233 CE; "al-Durar wal-Ghurar"
Posted Image

3. copied in or before 1271 CE; "Kitab Makarim al-Akhlaq"
Posted Image

4. copied 1275 CE; "al-Risala al-Adhawiyya"
Posted Image

OLB-paper (copied 1256 CE):
Posted Image

=== Posted 03 December 2013 - 08:42 PM

Copy with a different lighting. Here the (horizontal) "laid lines" are better visible.
These lines were already used by the Chinese, who made paper long before the Arabs adopted their methods.

Posted Image

=== Posted 03 December 2013 - 09:05 PM

On this paper (Latin-Arabic manuscript, dated before 1195 CE, from Toledo Spain), the laid lines are also clearly visible (here vertical).
Posted Image

Arab paper making:
Posted Image

Source for both images: http://www.islamicma...quires-2013.pdf

=== Posted 04 December 2013 - 08:38 AM
View PostKnul, on 04 December 2013 - 03:42 AM, said:
... a list of modern mid 19th c. words and expressions in the OLB...

You believe they are modern mid 19th., but you are not sure.
I could refute all of them again, as has been done over and over so far, with all earlier examples.
Where did these ´modern´ expressions (in written form) come from?
From spoken language, which is much older.

=== Posted 04 December 2013 - 11:20 AM
View PostKnul, on 04 December 2013 - 03:42 AM, said:
I can give you a list of modern mid 19th c. words and expressions in the OLB like
todalesta (ten laatste),
nittomin (niettemin)
dahwila (dewijl),
afsken (ofschoon), etc.

If these were some of your best examples, then you have (once more) made yourself implausible.


translation: (litterally:) "to (the) (long) last" (finally, at the end)

"van allen andren sticken dannof dat scepenen sullen sijn ghesuoren siene moeghen nemen war .iij. dinghedaghe vorste ende ne deliuererse hem niet binden iiij dingdaghe jof ten laetsten binder maent die claghe sal bliuen in sgrauen handen om te iugirne jof te doen iugirne biden goenen die die graue sal setten in sine stede dat te doene"   Corp.I p. 564, r. 21-25, Brugge, West-Vlaanderen, 1281

Modern lemma: laatst
Oudste attestatie: 901-1000
Etymologie: Cognaten: Oudfries  lest, last.

NAVT TO MIN (not the less, anyway)

Oudste attestatie: Limburg, 1240
Aangetroffen spelling: nit min, niet te min
nichil : nit / nichilum : niwet / nichilominus : nogtanne, nit+min   Bern. p. 258, r. 24-26, Limburg, 1240
Moses hiet met ghewelde. Dats (t.w. het manna) niemen ouer nacht ne helde. Dies ne lietsi (t.w. de Israëlieten) niet+te+min. Des anders daghes vonder sire+in. Den worm ende dat brod verrod. (Mozes drong er met kracht op aan dat niemand het de nacht over zou bewaren. Dat deden ze echter toch. De andere dag vonden ze er wormen in en het brood (was) bedorven.)   Rijmb. p. 106, r. 20-24, West-Vlaanderen, 1285


Translation: while (dutch: terwijl)

Varianten: diewile
Modern lemma: dewijl/de-wijl
(diewile), bijw. uitdr. Onderwijl. — Met toevoeging van de relat. partikel dat (die ook weggelaten wordt), voegw. Terwijl. Vgl. derwilen.
Dewyle dat Mer Jan van Crouwy up de marct stille hielt .., soe trocken de Heynuwiers van huuzen te huuyzen, Cron. v. Vlaend. 2, 131, Vlaanderen, 1467-1480
Dewyle he dat wyff hevet, soe compt he noch anderwarff byder eersten, unde se brenget voert ein kint, Pro Excol. 6, 703.

Many more examples from the 13th and 14th century here (diewile, diewyl):

AFSKÉN (although)

ofschoon vw. ‘hoewel, ook al’
Vnnl. of ghy schoon veyst, soo antwoort doch dat Griecx spreecwoort voor v ‘ook al ontkent u, toch antwoordt het Griekse spreekwoord voor u’ [1560; WNT waterkruik], of schoon een vluchtigh lustgen ghevoeldt werdt ... daer op volght stracx een gheduerighe smerte ‘hoewel een voorbijgaand genoegen wordt ervaren, volgt daarop weldra een altijddurende smart’ [ca. 1570; WNT oermeeren]; nnl. ofschoon ... niet min ‘hoewel, ... niettemin’ [ca. 1615; WNT verandering].

=== Posted 07 December 2013 - 04:13 PM
[O-S p.115]
wilt gij mijne roede niet, zoo zult gij mijn zwaard hebben
If you will not have me [my rod], you shall have my sword

I noticed something interesting about this word "KUL".
First, it is not listed in any of the oldfrisian dictionaries (Wiarda, Hettema, Richthofen), but it is in Kiliaan's "Etymologicum Teutonicae Linguae" (1599).
It meant both testicle and penis.
The word is only used in modern dutch as meaning "nonsense".

"Beverscul" (13th century) is castoreum, dutch: bevergeil, german: Bibelgeil.
So the dutch-german word "geil" is derived from it.

In my norwegian pocket-dictionary, "Kul" is listed as meaning bump, lump, swelling.
"Kule" in norwegian means bullet, ball. "Kull" is coal.

Look at the similaties between the words and how their meanings are also related.
It is a great example of how various languages (or dialects?) and words within them are related.

kul - norwegian
Posted ImagePosted ImagePosted Image

kule - norwegian
kúla - icelandic
kula - swedish
kugle - danish
kugel - german
kogel - dutch
(bullet, ball - english)
Posted ImagePosted ImagePosted Image

kål - danish, swedsih, norwegian
kál - icelandic
kaali - finnish
caul, kale - english
kool - dutch
kohl - german
Posted Image

kull - norwegian
kul - danish
kol - swedish, icelandic
kool - dutch
kohle - german
coal - english
gual - irish
Posted Image

=== Posted 13 December 2013 - 09:11 AM

View PostMario Dantas, on 10 December 2013 - 10:18 PM, said:
Why authorities do not investigate this further? (...)
I wonder if what you say is true, which would be the consequences of a reversal in the official "consensus"? (...)
I believe you have a winner, regardless of what people say...

Thank you for your encouragement and important questions, Mario.
With my following videos, I will try to answer some of them.

=== Posted 16 December 2013 - 09:20 AM
View PostAbramelin, on 15 December 2013 - 09:54 PM, said:
héjel to jenst tha andérna fétere

Probably same verb, different spelling:

Possibly related to Richthofen (1842): fitera - fesseln (to fetter)
Jensma (2006) translated both with "geselen" (lash, flog, whip)

=== Posted 16 December 2013 - 10:03 AM
View Postgestur, on 16 December 2013 - 09:20 AM, said:
Probably same verb, different spelling:

More fragments with the same word, that comfirm it probably means something like to whip:


My Frisian dictionary has:
fiterje - aandrijven, aansporen, aanzetten (urge, spur on, etc)

=== Posted 16 December 2013 - 01:49 PM
View PostKnul, on 16 December 2013 - 12:58 PM, said:

That word is related to french "foutre", latin "futuere".
A link with the frisian "fiterje" makes more sense to me, but who knows, that may be related to the latin word as well.

=== Posted 20 December 2013 - 10:42 AM
View Postgestur, on 22 November 2013 - 04:34 PM, said:
ANFANGA = αναφαινω
According to my dictionary, this can mean:
ignite, let shine, bring to light, reveal, inform
(laten lichten, laten schitteren, aan 't licht brengen, openbaren, meedelen)
"templum quod Tanfanae vocabant"
..., it may very well have been a temple where T.ANFANG was celebrated.

Possibly related (source):

Altar for the Deae Aufaniae
Object-Type: Votivaltar
Finding place: Mainz; Mainz [Kreis]; Rheinland-Pfalz [Bundesland]; Deutschland, or: Mogontiacum; Germania Superior

Deab(us) Aufan(iabus) / et Tutelae loci / pro salute et in/col(u)mitate sua / suorumq(ue) om/nium L(ucius) Maiori/us Cogitatus b(ene)f(iciarius) / co(n)s(ularis) vot(um) sol(vit) l(ibens) l(aetus) m(erito) / Idibus Iuli(i)s / Gentiano et / Basso co(n)s(ulibus)

Posted Image

=== Posted 22 December 2013 - 10:04 AM

View PostAbramelin, on 21 December 2013 - 08:27 PM, said:
Latin: presbyter > prester
Praeses and praetor are older and have similar meanings.

=== Posted 24 December 2013 - 10:18 AM
View PostAbramelin, on 23 December 2013 - 09:59 PM, said:
And did you read about how the Norwegians/Scandinavians/Vikings called their 'priests' before their conversion to Christianity?Gode.

So your conclusion is that this was the only word for priest in all of northern Europe? BS.
They had different terms for the same concepts, just like we do.
God in Icelandic can be "Guð" or "Drottinn" (the latter usually being translated as "Lord").
This last word is also known from old-german:

"Te hwi thu mik so farlieti, lievo drohtin" (anonymous ca. 830 CE) = why do you abandon me, dear God/ Lord?

The <h> before a <t> will have sounded like our <ch>, compare "alomahtig""; allmighty (dutch: almachtig).

"Liobo druhtin min" (Otfried von Weißenburg, ca. 865 CE) = my dear God/ Lord


If your god is quite so good

But our god does not want that that

the supreme god

... etcetera.

The word was sometimes translated by Ottema as "gedrocht" (monster), which was probably (in that context) how the Fryas thought about the gods of their enemies. But Minerva also referred to Wralda als DROCHTEN. So the meaning of words sometimes change.

OLB is much more complex than you imagine. You'll have to do better than superficially scan it and then create pet theories that you stubbornly stick to.

In short, there are many more indications (and they are much stronger) that OLB's language is authentic, than that it's a modern fabrication. Even the specialists back then couldn't imagine anyone who would have been capable of creating anything of its kind.

Your examples are desperate and inutile attempts to prove that OLB is fake.

=== Posted 30 December 2013 - 08:05 AM
Dr. No and Puzzler gave perfect replies, I can only add little to it:

View PostAbramelin, on 29 December 2013 - 07:38 PM, said:
To me. and many others, it is bloody obvious that "prester/priester" is derived from "presbyter". It follows the same etymological 'rule' as the derivation of "ho(s)tel" from Latin "hospitale"

It is indeed possible that prester is derived from presbyter, just like master (also used in OLB) from magister. But we don´t know when that happened. We have very little written records, and mainly from cultures that destroyed/ replaced the northern European indiginous ones. Oral language is much older and the varieties may have co-existed for a very long time, the shorter versions (prester, master) possibly being considered to be more vulgar. Who knows? Not we.

You said the word "prester/priester" could have been derived from other, LATIN words (...), but then it still was not an Old Frisian/Old Germanic word. No Sir, I do not ignore anything.

I never suggested derived from, but related to:

View Postgestur, on 12 November 2013 - 09:57 AM, said:
In my Latin dictionary I see other possible related words:
praeses = beschermer, verdediger, bestuurder, heerser, stadhouder, landvoogd (protector, ruler, etc)
praetor = consul, krijgsoverste, stadhouder (thus similar to praeses)
praetor maximus = dictator

=== Posted 30 December 2013 - 06:09 PM
View PostKnul, on 30 December 2013 - 05:32 PM, said:
I am still waiting for your proof, that the OLB is authentic without the words maybe, possibly, could be, etc., but with something we can verify.

One step at a time.

My main goal at the moment is to prove that the official OLB-doctrine is flawed in many ways, and that it is not at all evident that the OLB is fake.

In my recent videos, I demonstrate that the relevant authorities* misinform the Dutch/ Frisian public about the OLB.

* authorities:
1: Tresoar, the archive in Leeuwarden (Friesland) that guards the manuscript
2: prof. Goffe Jensma (Groningen University) and Frisian educational TV (11en30)

For now I am satisfied when people accept that OLB might be authentic and that further research is needed.
From there we can move on.